I still can’t get over the inflammatory article I read yesterday. I e-mailed the editor-in-chief of the paper and complained. I encourage everyone else to do so as well. As somebody who has worked in different newsrooms over the last seven years, trust me when I tell you that feedback has an impact. Also, upon hubby’s suggestion, I translated the article into English for those who couldn’t read it in Arabic. Part of the article is below, the rest is in the extended section of this post.
Al-Banna family in al-Salt received greetings for son Raed’s martyrdom in an Iraqi resistance operation
Al-Banna family in al-Salt organized a martyr’s wedding yesterday for their son Raed Mansur al-Banna who blew himself up in an explosive-laden car that he was driving in Baghdad in al-Hilla on March 1.
The father of the martyr proudly received the well-wishers in the tribe’s reception hall in central Jada in the center of the city of Salt. The story of Raed is similar to that of many youth from the city that left for Jihad across the globe. Raed’s appointment with martyrdom came on March 1, when he blew himself up inside an explosive-laden car that he was driving in al-Hilla in Baghdad that resulted in the killing of over 133 people, the majority of whom were Americans.
Raed left his house three months prior to the incident and told his parents he was going to Saudi to perform al Umra (lesser Haj). Raed had just returned from Umra a few weeks before, as he went to take part in the anti-terrorism course organized by the Saudi government, according to his bother Ahmad Mansur al-Banna.
Raed, who was born in 1973, got his BA degree in Law from Muta University in 1995. During the events of September 11, 2001 he was working in California, said his brother. He noted that this incident [Sept. 11] changed him from a normal guy to a religiously devoted one, who committed himself to praying in the mosque while standing side by side with the Egyptian preacher Wajdi Ghanim in the mosques of California.
The news of his martyrdom came two days after he committed the martyrdom operation when someone claiming to be part of the guys of Aljazeera called Raed’s brother and told him the news of the Raed’s martyrdom along with another person from Jordan named Safwan al-Abbadi. He said Raed had been martyred two days previous in an operation executed by the Iraqi resistance.
The caller said that in order to prove that Raed did the operation he would tell his brother the names of Raed’s relatives and that Raed had traveled to the US and UK and had earned a BA in Law and had worked as a lawyer for three years in Jordan. He also said that Raed had requested a payment of $100 be made to someone that had business dealings with him in the US. But the caller said that they should wait before they announced his martyrdom just to make sure.
That was prior to 1967 Tom.
It it not true. Neither Jordan or Egypt occupy Palestinian lands. Just wondering, where did you hear this?
Can someone answer the question – Is it not true that both Egypt and Jordon are currently occupying palestinian lands?
Fine – let’s conclude this then. It is not likely you will convince me it is OK to kill me, and I don’t think I will convince you of anything either.
In final points – I never said anywhere above that I see no wrong in anything Israel does. But I do think it has a right to exist.
You asked a specific question – Can an Israeli Arab serve in the army? Yes, and many do.
My understanding of the policy is this: IDF services is optional among some communities, though I am not certain everyone can join. Most Druze and Bedouin serve. Most non-Druze, non-Bedouin Muslims do not. I am not aware of anyone trying to join the army and being turned down.
One more thing, I am suggesting that we attempt to conclude this debate because obviously neither of us will be convinced with the other’s arguement. There have been arguements and counter arguements from both sides since 1948 and if all those decades didnt do it, then we’re going to be here for a long time.
just a suggestion.
“Then I would say that trying to kill a people is worse than an occupation”. i’m trying to wrap my head around this statement. well for the sake of sounding like a broken record lemme repeat once again: These lands belong to Arabs and specifically Palestinians of all religions. These lands were stolen from them and occupied by the Zionists. They have a right to fight to get it back. They have a right to defend themselves and their land from anyone who occupies it for any reason…every person in Israel plays the role of occupying a land that is not theirs. Hence every person in Israel is a legitamate target for a Palestinian. We would not be having this discussion if the Zionists had not come to Palestine and had instead chosen to create a state in say Senegal. We dont care what race or creed they are, all they represent to us is occupation.
The Arabs as of yet have not been able to win a war against Israel, hence the palestinians living in the occupied terretories must fend for themselves. The most effective weapon they have discovered thusfar has been self-sacrafice. If my life decision comes down to kill or be killed, im choosing the former.
Islam is a religion, it does not make people holy and nor does any other religion or laws that exist through the human race, everyone can acknowledge that. The difference is that when someone breaks one of these laws they are considered in the wrong according to Islam as they did not adhere to Islamic war ethics. In contrast the Israelies could care less about shooting 10 year old girls in schoolyards and no one will hold them accountable.
As for the bulldozers, it is merely a hypothesis. I dont see palestinians going around bulldozing shrines of people of the book. The difference here is that i can leave room for a marginal error in the sense that even though our command is NOT to destroy such places even in a state of occupation there will be someone who will break with that law out of anger and frustration with the condition Israel has imposed on him. You on the other hand show no evidence that Israel is ever in the wrong doing, even though its very existance in Arab lands is wrong.
As for Israeli Arabs. Mind you I think this is a worthless digression instead of focusing on one thing. Israeli arabs are occupied as well, they have merely chosen to remain in their homes. They are the “lucky” few that were not butchered by the zionists or driven out. Question: Can an Israeli Arab serve in the army? They (Israel) can decorate this up all they want for the international community to smile down on them and pat them on the back, but Palestinians will endlessly view this as an occupation and as a war. To quote Rabbi Yaacov Perrin: “One million Arabs are not worth a Jewish fingernail.”
As for the Aims of Zionism, when i told u about it you replied by saying: “Also, that appears to be a pretty religious site, which I doubt would reflect the thinking of the secularists that founded Israel (Herzl, Ben-Gurion, etc) or most of the current day government or population.”
I then offered you information which proved this is their way of thinking straight from the mouths of both Herzl and Ben-Gurion.
You can stare at the Sun and insist its an apple but inevitably it will blind u along with ure denial.
So let us summarize…Israel is an illegal state. It is an occupier. Palestinians have the right to defend their people, lands, and country from this on-going occupation and no amount of time will errode this belief. If you don’t like it, get out. That’s our plan. Difference is? We don’t deny it
I will respond to the first part last, because that was the main topic. Your argument in essence that we are wrong, that we shouldn’t be there and therefore there should be no rules in fighting us. But in most conflicts the people fighting believe they are right, so should they always wave rules? You say that this is an exception because it is an occupation. That we are taking people’s land. Well, because of that your solution is to kill or drive out all Israelis. Then I would say that trying to kill a people is worse than an occupation. If we all switch over to your logic, we should just try our hardest to kill as many of the other side as possible. Even though I don’t live there, since I support Israel you believe that I am a legitimate target. Fine, then in my mind those who believe they have a right to attack me are a threat to me and it is legitimate for me to attack them.
The wars against Israel have taken many forms – they began quite conventionally but have incorporated terrorism for a long time. The tactic is used because conventionally, the Arab countries and Palestinians have not been able to match up against Israel.
You state that I am dodging the argument, yet instead of referencing “clean wars” fought in Islam – which was a claim you asserted you just respond that you know more than me. Fine recommend literature – or just provide some examples to support your claim – preferably in wars against non-Muslims.
You seem to be missing a good bit of information about Israel/Palestine yourself: “hmm..where did palestinians get bulldozers” – I don’t know why you would think that they don’t have bulldozers. For confirmation that they do check here.
You may not see the difference between Israeli Arabs and Palestinians, but they do. Polls have repeatedly shown that if a Palestinian state was created most Israeli Arabs would prefer to stay right where they are. I have one Israeli Arab in the family and I don’t picture him moving to Ramallah unless there were some pretty compelling circumstances. Also, I bet this guy sees some differences. But I guess the view is different in Toronto.
Finally, regarding your map and quotes, it is not clear to me what the map is for or from. Readers should look at the various theories expounded on that website and then draw their own conclusions regarding its validity (including Saddam was never captured, Saddam did not gas the Kurds, etc.). You have a number of quotes pulled out from various sources from the 1940’s or earlier. On my side is the fact that Israel has not made any attempt to take over Jordan or Iraq or Egypt, and in fact returned much of the Sinai to Egypt in a peace deal which provided Israel very little other than a very cold peace. Anyhow, a good counterargument to that argument was made by Daniel Pipes here. And I won’t repeat it.
Jordanian Suicide Bomber in Hilla
Terrorism results exclusively from Poverty? Check out a picture of the house where the Hilla suicide bomber lived: This home is typical of the extravagance of the more upperclass citizens in Jordan.
Jordanian Media Inciting Martyrdom
Check out this interesting example of the delusional Arab press writing favorably about the Jordanian suicide bomber who murdered more than one hundred Iraqi civilians in Hilla last month. The murderer in question was evidently a 32 year old lawyer fro…
Amir, let me begin by repeating once again…Israel should not exist. I’m sure the “swamp” land u purchased is now a flourishing garden since these past few decades, but you’ve built it on stolen land. it’s like robbing a person’s house, turning the assets in to cash and putting them in the bank and saying “well their mine now”. how is this logical? what is strange here is that you truly believe this land is yours as if we were speaking 200 years from now. Not even 60 years have passed, there is still a generation out there of which these homes are rightfully and directly theirs, not their sons or grandsons, but them. Switch it around, if i come to kick u out of your home and take it over and rennovate it while ure in the backyard, is it mine? can i sell it to others.
As for the Nile to Euphrates plan…
heres a map.
In his Complete Diaries, Vol. II. p. 711, Theodore Herzl, the founder of Zionism, says that the area of the Jewish State stretches: “From the Brook of Egypt to the Euphrates.”
Rabbi Fischmann, member of the Jewish Agency for Palestine, declared in his testimony to the U.N. Special Committee of Enquiry on 9 July 1947: “The Promised Land extends from the River of Egypt up to the Euphrates, it includes parts of Syria and Lebanon.”
Now, why don’t i believe in peace or a 2 state solution other than the fact its an illegal occupation? Simply because the Zionists themselves do not.
Joseph Weitz, the head of the Jewish Agenc’s Colonization Department in 1940 said:
“Between ourselves it must be clear that there is no room for both peoples together in this country. We shall not achieve our goal if the Arabs are in this small country. There is no other way than to transfer the Arabs from here to neighboring countries – all of them. Not one village, not one tribe should be left.”
Ben-Gurion who established Israel described the future Jewish state border as the following in 1918…
“To the north, the Litani river [in southern Lebanon], to the northeast, the Wadi ‘Owja, twenty miles south of Damascus; the southern border will be mobile and pushed into Sinai at least up to Wadi al-‘Arish; and to the east, the Syrian Desert, including the furthest edge of Transjordan” (Nur Masalha – Expulsion Of The Palestinians: p. 87)
“Having Lebanon as a neighbor ensures the Jewish state faithful ally from the first day of its establishment. It is not, also, unavoidable that across the northern side of the Jewish state border in southern Lebanon the first possibility of our expansion will come up through agreement , in good will, with our neighbors who need us.” (Nur Masalha – Expulsion Of The Palestinians: p. 88)
Ben-Gurion with one of his aides…
“Before the founding of the state, on the eve of its creation, our main interests was self-defense. Many think that we’re still at the same stage. But now the issue at hand is conquest, not self-defense. As for setting the borders— it’s an open-ended matter. In the Bible as well as in our history, there all kinds of definitions of the country’s borders, so there’s no real limit. No border is absolute. If it’s a desert— it could just as well be the other side. If it’s sea, it could also be across the sea.” (Tom Segev – 1949, The First Israelis: p. 6)
Ben-Gurion said about Israel created temporarily in part of palestine…
“[I am] satisfied with part of the country, but on the basis of the assumption that after we build up a strong force following the establishment of the state–we will abolish the partition of the country and we will expand to the whole Land of Israel.” (Nur Masalha – Expulsion Of The Palestinians: p. 107
Ben Gurion wrote to his children in ’38…
“I don’t regard a state in part of Palestine as the final aim of Zionism, but as a mean toward that aim.” (Shabtai Teveth – Ben-Gurion And The Palestinian Arabs: p. 188)
Ben-Gurion sent a letter to his son in 1937 in which he wrote about the Peel Commission proposal of partitioning Palestine…
“No Zionist can forgo the smallest portion of the Land of Israel. [A] Jewish state in part [of Palestine] is not an end, but a beginning ….. Our possession is important not only for itself … through this we increase our power, and every increase in power facilitates getting hold of the country in its entirety. Establishing a [small] state …. will serve as a very potent lever in our historical effort to redeem the whole country.” (Benny Morris – Righteous Victims: p. 138)
Ben Gurionto a group of American Jewish labour leaders in New York in 37’…
“The borders [of the Jewish state] will not be fixed for eternity.” (Shabtai Teveth – Gurion And The Palestinian Arabs: p. 188)
Ben-Gurion during a discussion of the Peel Commission partitioning plan in 37 said…
“The acceptance of partition does not commit us to renounce Transjordan. One does not demand from anybody to hive up his vision. We shall accept a state in the boundaries fixed today–but the boundaries of the Zionist aspirations are concern of the Jewish people and no external factor will be able to limit them.” (Simha Falpan – The Birth of Israel: p. 52-53)
⇒ Now, where were we? ah yes, israeli arabs…how did we start talking about them? Yes they’ve grown to 1 million which is what i was implying (i.e. from those that stayed), and as u can see they arnt worth much more than a fingernail. they, at least how i see it, have been served just as much a raw deal as their brethern to the east. i dont see the difference really. just one more virus to eradicate.
⇒ temples: in the first link there are 5 incidents: i cannot vouch for any of them except for the church of navity in which they were allowed to go in there. u forget perhaps that this resistance includes christians and they’ve played a major role in providing safehouses for the fighters on countless incidents thank God. they are a minority but they do their part. this was one of those times. i noticed it failed to mention the shelling of the church by israeli forces which caused quite an uproar in the west. this makes me suspect of the other incidents, especially the one with bulldozers…hmm..where did palestinians get bulldozers…i only see or read about bulldozers in palestine in one context and its got nutin to do with shrines. no matter. as ive said before (or in case i havnt) if these incidents did occur (which i am highly doubting at this point) then they are in the wrong, if they were muslims of course. hence it cannot be justified.
⇒ as for your familiarity with clean wars in islam, hmm, it seems there are many things you are not familiar with when it comes to islam. would you like me to recommend literature because theres no sense in droning on about history you have not (or chosen not to) read.
⇒ Finally after all those digressions we return to ground zero. Martyr operations.
if the situation was flipped around (a clever way of avoiding an arguement so hats off) i would have no sympathy for the israeli girl simply on the grounds that she shouldnt be there. she or her parents or her state have NO RIGHT TO BE THERE. how simpler can this formula get? why should i sympathize with a state and a people who have stolen the land of my brethern and continue to persecute them? what justification is there.
back to rule ethics, under occupation there are no civilians. everyone is considered a legitamate target on the grounds that they are obviously supporting an occupation simply by being there.
personally i wish martyr bombings did not occur. only because i feel it wastes the youngest, strongest and bravest generation of palestinians who must resort to such desperate measures in such desperate times. i would prefer if they were well armed and could at least mildly close the enormous power gap between them and Israel. sadly, arms are rare and they are forced to resort to limbs.